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Post by cliff on Dec 10, 2006 2:14:07 GMT -5
Hey Giss,
Something has bothered me for a long time. Perhaps you can explain why Northfield doesn't announce prior to claiming races if any claims have been entered? Other tracks do this routinely, and I find it useful to know if a claimer's price has attracted attention. Announcing claims after the race has ended is obviously useless to handicappers. Another question...do the current owners/trainers know claims are entered on their horses before the race is run, or do they find out after like the rest of us? I think announcing to the world before hand is fair to all. Thanks.
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Post by trackrat on Dec 10, 2006 6:23:49 GMT -5
Cliff, now that you have opened up the subject, can you explain what value a handicapper can gain from knowing if a horse has a claim entered before the race? I can see three possible scenarios:
1) The soon-to-to be former owner/trainer will gut the horse trying to get one last check;
2) In deference to the new owner/trainer, the driver will just take the horse for a jog so that the new owner receives a "fresh" horse;
3) The driver will try to win the race with ordinary effort, but won't exhaust the horse if hitting the board is remote.
I know there is animosity between some trainers and with purses so small, I can see scenario #1 occurring but could not even guess how often. Scenario #2 would have to involve a rather independent (read that successful) driver who could afford to alienate the current trainer/owner in order to appease the new owner/trainer.
In conclusion, would you rate the claim status as a positive or a negative in evaluating this particular horse's chances of winning the race?
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Post by cliff on Dec 10, 2006 13:21:31 GMT -5
Of the scenarios you listed, I think number one is more likely. Since the horse is going elsewhere after the race, I would imagine its current connections would want the driver to use as much of the horse as possible to get a final check. Maybe a couple of owners would offer their perspective. However that is not the real reason I would like to know if claims are entered.
To me it's useful to know how the horsemen value a particular horse. I'm very reluctant to wager claimers dropping in class. To see a claimer dropping in class week after week and no one claiming it is a red flag that there is something wrong with the horse. At what point does the price drop so low that someone is willing to take a chance on him? We don't know until after the fact. There is also the case where a claimer has been steadily moving up until he hits a level where he appears to be uncompetitive. Has he reached his class limit, or is it just a case of form being off? If they drop the horse back just a bit and suddenly there are multiple claims entered, that answers the question since more than one horseman think the horse is a bargain.
There is also the case where a horse that has been used exclusively in condition races is dropped in for a tag. Can the horse handle claimers or be improved upon? If claims are entered we know at least some think the horse hasn't reached its full potential.
In any case, information is power, and the more information we have to work with the better. If the horse's connections know claims have been entered before hand, either by being notified by track officials or by word of mouth, why shouldn't the betting public also know? The Meadowlands, Meadows, and numerous other tracks divulge the info, so why not Northfield?
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Post by jay44224 on Dec 10, 2006 16:39:43 GMT -5
Cliff- The other tracks you mention are regulated by other racing commissions- it is not Northfield's decision to hold this info- it is mandated by Ohio State Racing Commission rules.
As far as owners knowing before hand- no they don't they find out after the conclusion of the race.
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Post by shakey on Dec 10, 2006 17:07:16 GMT -5
As far as owners knowing before hand- no they don't they find out after the conclusion of the race. That is supposed to be the rule, Jay. However, when DepravedHedonist was claimed from me for $32k this past year it was all over the track, and word got back to me. You know how people talk... In any event, I called my trainer, and we discussed the situation. Long story short, we raced DH the same that night as we would on any given race night. The last thing that I would want, or my trainer, is for a driver to gut one of my horses simply because he was getting claimed. It wouldn't be fair to the new owners, nor the horse. |
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Post by cliff on Dec 10, 2006 18:55:43 GMT -5
Thanks Jay for the info. I didn't realize it was an Ohio Commission rule.  I guess my beef is with them and not Northfield. I wonder what their reasoning is. It's a pretty dumb rule. Like shakey says, the word will spread regardless. It's almost akin to insider trading if the information isn't given to everyone before the race is run. |
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Post by jimhorseman on Dec 10, 2006 22:20:56 GMT -5
Guys:
Same rule here in NY. Claims are not announced till after the race. I have had 3 horses claimed from me over the years and I knew every time it was going to happen before the race. Many times the new prospective owner will mosey by the barn to make sure the horse is sound. My first claimer was taken for $5k and we re-claimed her the next week for $6k. The new owner was not happy and gutted her in that race. She came back with marks all over her due to being excessively beat with the whip. After filing a complaint with track management the offending driver was given a $100 fine. Meantime we gave the horse several weeks off to recover and heal. Shakey is right. Everyone knows a claim is going to happen except for the betting public. It should be standard information for all.
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Post by jay44224 on Dec 11, 2006 9:25:40 GMT -5
If I am not mistaken- New York rules state if a horse is entered in a claiming race you must make him available for inspection without wraps- bandages or boots.
There have been times I knew a horse of mine was going to be claimed- as prior to the claim the prospective new owner- has approached me. But I have also been surprised by a few.
I have had a couple I would have sold for less than the claim amount if approached.
As far as the actual rules if I find them I will post them
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Post by jay44224 on Dec 11, 2006 9:40:06 GMT -5
Ohio Rule #3769-16-06 Information on Claims Restricted
No official or other employee of a permit holder shall give any information as to the filing of claims until after the race has been run.
NY Rule 4109.3. Claiming procedure.
(m) Inspection. From 11:30 a.m. to 12 noon the day of its race, the trainer of a horse programmed to start in a claiming race shall make such horse available for inspection outside its stall by anyone desiring to so inspect said horse who is properly in the barn area. For purposes of such inspection, all bandages, blankets, equipment or other
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Post by therealmuljuice on Dec 11, 2006 9:48:06 GMT -5
It would be interesting if a member of the OSRC or its staff could be persuaded to explain, in this forum, the rationale behind the OSRC rule and why it should differ from other jurisdictions. For that matter, perhaps Amy Hollar can explain the reason (that she thinks) the rule exists in Ohio. What does the Horsemens' Association think of the rule?
If it is a good rule in New York, why not Ohio?
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Post by thegiss on Dec 11, 2006 11:32:40 GMT -5
It would be interesting if a member of the OSRC or its staff could be persuaded to explain, in this forum, the rationale behind the OSRC rule and why it should differ from other jurisdictions. For that matter, perhaps Amy Hollar can explain the reason (that she thinks) the rule exists in Ohio. What does the Horsemens' Association think of the rule?
If it is a good rule in New York, why not Ohio? I have made repeated requests for the rule to be changed-- there is a belief that if the claim is announced before the race, the animal will be abused or scrathced. When I explained that their are already penalties in place to deal with that, Mr. Zonak was not interested. Nor was he interested in the fact that nearly every major jurisdiction requires or at least permits the announcement. Hell, its an auto win at Flamboro. He has received several letters from patrons, but still no movement. |
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Post by poohollar on Dec 12, 2006 8:51:03 GMT -5
A rule change to announce claims prior to the race is something the OHHA board has supported for years. The biggest opposition came from Cliff Nelson. When he was replaced we thought it would change. It didn't, and the commission balks at the idea every time it is mentioned. I would have to go through my notes from our last liaison meeting to find a reason why they keep balking.  Obviously a sound idea wasn't given or I would have remembered.  |
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Post by trackrat on Dec 12, 2006 10:27:12 GMT -5
Thanks guys (and Poo) for providing the information on the OSRC's reluctance [or opposition] to announcing claims before the claiming race in question.
As a fan, I often wonder why a horse like Paper Branch isn't claimed every week, based upon its consistency and the low claiming price. Suggests that the horsemen know a lot more than the average fan when it comes to the condition and/or upkeep of a particular horse.
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Post by jay44224 on Dec 12, 2006 11:16:52 GMT -5
Trackrat- If my info is correct- that horse had some extensive time off for a broken bone- I believe in one of his legs. As we all seen with Cambest Prince- they can break again. There are some horses at the track that their next start may be their last- and yet they may stay sound for a year- it is a different form in gambling- but how confident are you. I have one like that each race may be her last- but I am willing to breed her if she completely breaks down.
What do you do with a gelding? No Residual value until it is rehabbed- and that is a long shot at best.
Question for Amy or whoever else may be able to answer. Does the OSRC ever poll their membership on issues. It seems like other states Racing commissions are always sending questioneers about what changes could be made to improve the sport- I do not recall ever getting one from Ohio.
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Post by thegiss on Dec 12, 2006 11:42:23 GMT -5
Trackrat- If my info is correct- that horse had some extensive time off for a broken bone- I believe in one of his legs. As we all seen with Cambest Prince- they can break again. There are some horses at the track that their next start may be their last- and yet they may stay sound for a year- it is a different form in gambling- but how confident are you. I have one like that each race may be her last- but I am willing to breed her if she completely breaks down. What do you do with a gelding? No Residual value until it is rehabbed- and that is a long shot at best. Question for Amy or whoever else may be able to answer. Does the OSRC ever poll their membership on issues. It seems like other states Racing commissions are always sending questioneers about what changes could be made to improve the sport- I do not recall ever getting one from Ohio. Actually, Paper Branch (who will be named National Claimer of the Year by Harness Eye later this month) had a hock infection as a result of an injection when the Stein's had him. He nearly died, and in fact it was suggested he be put down. Cindy actuyally started using him as a riding horse. The hock is still pretty bad--watch him when he first hits the track pacing, but he warms out of it. This horse would likely be a 20-30 claimer at M1 otherwise. |
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I guess my beef is with them and not Northfield. I wonder what their reasoning is. It's a pretty dumb rule. Like shakey says, the word will spread regardless. It's almost akin to insider trading if the information isn't given to everyone before the race is run. 
Obviously a sound idea wasn't given or I would have remembered. 